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[Music]

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t-minus one minute

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we are go for launch

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t-minus 10 9 8

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7 six five four

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three two one

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so

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[Music]

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welcome back to the nasa virtual social

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for mars

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2020 i am your host wayne sachser and

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on this episode the final one we are

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going to be talking

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about nuclear batteries joining me is my

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co-host allison allison how you doing

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today

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i'm doing great wayne and i'm so happy

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to be your co-host today and for

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everyone who is joining us

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live i've been monitoring your questions

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for the earlier shows i think you guys

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are going to be really excited about the

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guests we have with us today so please

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drop your questions in the comment box

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hashtag

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mars and we'll see if we get most of

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yeah as alison said we have a great we

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have a great show prepared for you

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like i said talking about nuclear

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batteries we have a guest joining us we

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will introduce him

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after this video and we want to show you

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what does it mean to persevere

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how did this rover get its name we as a

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species and as a company at nasa

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we want to know what it means so please

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take a look at this video

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and we will come right back we

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[Music]

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believers

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to overcome the many challenges this is

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what brings out the best in us

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[Music]

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our path has led to success and to

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bitter losses we come together

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today to mourn the loss of seven brave

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americans

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yet even when faced with tragedy

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and setbacks we persevere

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we keep striving we

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keep believing from space

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we see our planet as a whole we see the

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challenges

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together we will not give

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up we challenge convention we refuse to

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accept the status quo

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the time at hand is hard but

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we will persevere we can still draw hope

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from the moon

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and the stars from space

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from exploration there is a new day

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beyond the challenges we face now

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spirit opportunity if you think about it

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all of these names of past mars rovers

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are qualities we possess as humans

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are to be the stars of us as a race

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[Applause]

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[Music]

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are a perseverance of explorers

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[Music]

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we will meet many obstacles on our way

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to mars

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[Music]

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but as humans will

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we will always persevere

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as you saw there the name perseverance

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definitely has meaning to us

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and speaking of names it's not just

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called

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a nuclear battery it's a multi-mission

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radio isotope

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thermoelectric generator and here to

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talk to us about it

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is greg hula greg how you doing today

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i'm doing well wayne thank you

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you're welcome can you tell us a little

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bit about what it is

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on what the mmr is what your role with

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it is and kind of what it is you do

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yeah so the mmrpg as wayne mentioned

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is a nuclear battery it's essentially a

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system that converts heat

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from the natural decay of radioisotope

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fuel into electrical

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power and that's power that will provide

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electrical power for the rover

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on the surface of mars our role at the

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inl

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for the mars 2020 mission includes the

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assembly

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and the testing and the delivery of the

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power system

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for the rover you said inl that's the

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can you tell us what what that is and

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what your role there is

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yeah i can ida ida inl stands for idaho

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national laboratory

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we are part of the department of

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energy's complex

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and our role in the at the inl in the

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space nuclear power division which is

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the group i work in

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my role in that division is a nuclear

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safety and we look at

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the safety of the rtg power system

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in context of facility operations

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transportation

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and most recently in some launch safety

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context

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wow so i i spent some time researching

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this and i could ask you

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tons of questions but this is this is

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all about our viewers so we're gonna

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jump

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right to allison do we have any

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questions coming in from social

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yeah our viewers are definitely excited

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to learn about this first

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can we talk about a little bit the

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difference between switching from the

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solar panels

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to this nuclear battery and what the

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pros of it are yeah there's a couple of

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benefits of using a system such as an

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rtg

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say dust that might accumulate on a

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solar panel and

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reduce the efficiency of the panel the

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rtg is a completely sealed

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system so you don't have impacts of dust

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or other planetary environments that may

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degrade

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adversely affect the system the other

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benefit is that the nuclear battery

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provides

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power 24 hours a day over the course of

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many many years

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have adverse effect from you know sun

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not shining etcetera

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evenings days nights days nights

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so it's a very reliable source of power

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and it's actually got design life of

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about 17 years

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and we expect that that source of power

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the rtg to provide power

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for as long as the mission and the rover

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need it

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yeah that's really cool i was i was

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talking to my brother last night and

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that was his first question is

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well if we're not using solar panels

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then you know how long is this battery

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going to last so to hear it's going to

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go 17 years like

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that's a pretty long life cycle for you

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know something that's being sent to

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another planetary body

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it is and these um these rtgs have been

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used by nasa

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provided by the department of energy for

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over 50 years

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going back to the late 60s early 70s

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they've been reliably used as sources of

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power not only for deep space missions

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but also for missions such as the

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planetary surface on mars

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yeah wow alison do we have another

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question coming in from social

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yes we do so our viewers want to know is

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this the only power source on the

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perseverance rover

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this is this is not it

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this rtg provides power to lithium-ion

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batteries

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up the power provided by the rtg

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and meet peak demands of the

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perseverance rover's instruments and

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scientific

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packages it is the only nuclear power

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system

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on the rover though awesome and then

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what's

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next for the mm-rtg well the mm-rtg

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was successfully integrated to the rover

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last week

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remain integrated in the sense of

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attached electrically and mechanically

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and with the perseverance rover we

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launched

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successfully tomorrow and once on the

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surface of

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mars the rtg will provide power

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to the rover for many years

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and so i i actually have this question

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we get this a lot

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can you talk a little bit when you hear

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nuclear battery i think that makes

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people a little nervous

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sure so can you talk about kind of what

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it means for it to be a nuclear battery

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and some of the safety that's been

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implemented yeah it can

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we have a kind of a half size replica of

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the rtg

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the multi-mission rtg and as i mentioned

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it's a

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system that converts the heat from the

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natural decay of radioactive material

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to electrical power and it's essentially

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consists of two parts

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at the center of the unit as shown in

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the orange

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blocks that's the heat source and the

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heat source consists of about

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10.6 pounds of plutonium dioxide fuel

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and the main isotope in that fuel that

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produces heat

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is plutonium-238 that heat source

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is surrounded by 768 thermocouples

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the thermal converter part of the system

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and those thermocouples are collected

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um they're they're assembled into an

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electrical circuit

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that convert the 2000 watts of heat into

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approximately 110 watts of electrical

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power

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for the rover and

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the the ability to use a system like

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this a nuclear power system such as an

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rtg

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is largely possible because of the

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very high degree of safety that goes

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into the heat source

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and by heat source i mean

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the blocks they're called general

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purpose heat source

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modules and it's about four inch by four

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inch by two inch block

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and these are the heat sources that

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contain the plutonium oxide fuel

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and the general purpose heat source is

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composed of several layers

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and i'm talking i'm going to talk or

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describe it

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from the inside out and if you think

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about an onion if you were to peel the

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layers of an onion back till you got to

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the inside

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purpose heat source

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and at the inside um is

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the fuel i've got a kind of a model of a

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fuel pellet here

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and the red reflects the heat generated

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by the plutonium-238

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this pellet is about one inch tall and

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about one inch in diameter

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that fuel is a ceramic form of plutonium

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dioxide

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and the benefit of ceramic is that under

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impact accident environments

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it will tend to fracture or break into

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pieces and particles that are largely

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too

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large to be carried away by wind the

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containment of that fuel pellet

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is provided by an alloy of iridium

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called dope 26

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and that it's basically a metal casing

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that encapsulates the plutonium oxide

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pellet and provides for the containment

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of the fuel surrounding that fuel clad

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are three

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very special layers of carbon carbon

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material

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the first one is called a graphite

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impact shell and it's a cylindrical

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00:13:15,190 --> 00:13:14,000
component it's about two and a half

290
00:13:18,150 --> 00:13:15,200
inches long and it holds

291
00:13:20,310 --> 00:13:18,160
two of the fuel clads fuel clouds would

292
00:13:23,190 --> 00:13:20,320
sit inside of the graphite impact shell

293
00:13:25,110 --> 00:13:23,200
this graphite impact shell provides

294
00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:25,120
protection under very

295
00:13:29,350 --> 00:13:27,360
energetic impact scenarios are these to

296
00:13:30,949 --> 00:13:29,360
scale these are the scale

297
00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:30,959
and we have a half scale model here

298
00:13:34,230 --> 00:13:32,800
that's correct these are two scales yes

299
00:13:36,790 --> 00:13:34,240
the components that i've got for the

300
00:13:38,949 --> 00:13:36,800
gphs module are to scale cool

301
00:13:39,910 --> 00:13:38,959
and then surrounding the graphite impact

302
00:13:42,150 --> 00:13:39,920
shell

303
00:13:43,750 --> 00:13:42,160
is a carbon-based component that

304
00:13:46,870 --> 00:13:43,760
basically serves

305
00:13:49,350 --> 00:13:46,880
as a thermal insulator so under the

306
00:13:51,269 --> 00:13:49,360
very high temperature environments

307
00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:51,279
associated with like

308
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:53,440
atmospheric reentry that thermal

309
00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:54,480
insulator

310
00:14:01,430 --> 00:13:57,600
serves to protect the fuel clad from

311
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:02,629
so atmospheric reentry like what you're

312
00:14:06,470 --> 00:14:04,880
saying is in the event of a

313
00:14:07,990 --> 00:14:06,480
the extremely unlikely event of a

314
00:14:11,590 --> 00:14:08,000
contingency that

315
00:14:12,550 --> 00:14:11,600
this will actually protect the plutonium

316
00:14:15,110 --> 00:14:12,560
what you said

317
00:14:16,629 --> 00:14:15,120
on reentry so this can survive a

318
00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:16,639
re-entry all on its own

319
00:14:20,310 --> 00:14:18,320
it is designed to survive re-entry

320
00:14:22,069 --> 00:14:20,320
that's correct okay the outermost

321
00:14:25,189 --> 00:14:22,079
protective layer which is

322
00:14:28,069 --> 00:14:25,199
um the most substantial part

323
00:14:29,509 --> 00:14:28,079
of the gphs module is what we call the

324
00:14:33,750 --> 00:14:29,519
aeroshell

325
00:14:34,550 --> 00:14:33,760
accommodate two of the graphite impact

326
00:14:36,949 --> 00:14:34,560
shells

327
00:14:39,189 --> 00:14:36,959
such that there's four fuel clads in

328
00:14:42,230 --> 00:14:39,199
each gphs module

329
00:14:44,470 --> 00:14:42,240
this this aerial shell is made

330
00:14:46,230 --> 00:14:44,480
of the same material similar material

331
00:14:49,350 --> 00:14:46,240
that's on the nose cone of a missile

332
00:14:51,910 --> 00:14:49,360
so it's very very rugged very durable

333
00:14:52,949 --> 00:14:51,920
and very provides a very high level of

334
00:14:54,790 --> 00:14:52,959
protection

335
00:14:56,310 --> 00:14:54,800
under impact as well as thermal

336
00:14:58,230 --> 00:14:56,320
environments

337
00:15:01,269 --> 00:14:58,240
the components when assembled into the

338
00:15:02,790 --> 00:15:01,279
aeroshell is what we call the gphs

339
00:15:04,949 --> 00:15:02,800
or the general purpose heat source

340
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:04,959
module and there's eight of these

341
00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:05,760
modules

342
00:15:10,230 --> 00:15:08,399
that are stacked in the center of the

343
00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:10,240
multi-mission rtg

344
00:15:16,389 --> 00:15:13,360
and produce about 2 000 watts of heat

345
00:15:16,870 --> 00:15:16,399
from the plutonium 238 decay wow and so

346
00:15:20,389 --> 00:15:16,880
we were

347
00:15:23,030 --> 00:15:20,399
behind the scenes and i was told

348
00:15:23,590 --> 00:15:23,040
that you know this is actually very very

349
00:15:25,430 --> 00:15:23,600
safe

350
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:25,440
it's alpha raised and the only thing

351
00:15:30,470 --> 00:15:27,760
that you need to not do is eat it

352
00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:30,480
and that you would be fine right yeah

353
00:15:33,829 --> 00:15:32,240
you know actually wayne that

354
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:33,839
what we don't want to do is have any of

355
00:15:38,949 --> 00:15:35,279
it released

356
00:15:40,790 --> 00:15:38,959
and eating it is one one way where it

357
00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:40,800
could get in the body the other is

358
00:15:44,550 --> 00:15:42,560
through inhalation

359
00:15:46,230 --> 00:15:44,560
so the general purpose heat source

360
00:15:48,389 --> 00:15:46,240
module is designed

361
00:15:50,470 --> 00:15:48,399
to provide a very high degree of

362
00:15:54,069 --> 00:15:50,480
protection

363
00:15:57,269 --> 00:15:54,079
for the fuel inside it is possible

364
00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:57,279
under some very um very energetic

365
00:16:01,990 --> 00:15:59,440
accident environments there can be some

366
00:16:04,389 --> 00:16:02,000
small quantities of plutonium released

367
00:16:05,990 --> 00:16:04,399
and the the concern with that as you

368
00:16:07,030 --> 00:16:06,000
mentioned is the potential for health

369
00:16:09,030 --> 00:16:07,040
risk

370
00:16:10,790 --> 00:16:09,040
from those kinds of releases but that's

371
00:16:12,150 --> 00:16:10,800
why we have we have these systems we

372
00:16:14,310 --> 00:16:12,160
have backup systems and

373
00:16:15,749 --> 00:16:14,320
and safety is one of our core values

374
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:15,759
here absolutely

375
00:16:19,189 --> 00:16:17,600
yeah absolutely and we do have one last

376
00:16:22,069 --> 00:16:19,199
question from social

377
00:16:22,389 --> 00:16:22,079
why was the mm rtg attached at the very

378
00:16:24,069 --> 00:16:22,399
end

379
00:16:26,790 --> 00:16:24,079
just before the rocket was about to roll

380
00:16:29,829 --> 00:16:26,800
out so

381
00:16:31,189 --> 00:16:29,839
the one of the reasons for that has to

382
00:16:33,749 --> 00:16:31,199
do with the fact that

383
00:16:36,150 --> 00:16:33,759
not only does the plutonium emit alpha

384
00:16:39,189 --> 00:16:36,160
radiation but it also emits some

385
00:16:40,389 --> 00:16:39,199
gamma and neutron radiation which isn't

386
00:16:42,150 --> 00:16:40,399
easily blocked

387
00:16:43,990 --> 00:16:42,160
by the components so that can be a

388
00:16:46,470 --> 00:16:44,000
health hazard to workers

389
00:16:47,269 --> 00:16:46,480
a radiation hazard it's not very big

390
00:16:50,069 --> 00:16:47,279
poses no

391
00:16:52,310 --> 00:16:50,079
health risk to the public but by by

392
00:16:55,030 --> 00:16:52,320
holding off on the integration

393
00:16:56,069 --> 00:16:55,040
of the rtg to the end or very close to

394
00:16:58,310 --> 00:16:56,079
launch

395
00:16:59,350 --> 00:16:58,320
there's less people working around the

396
00:17:01,590 --> 00:16:59,360
rtg

397
00:17:02,949 --> 00:17:01,600
and exposed to that kind of radiation

398
00:17:06,309 --> 00:17:02,959
and then also i believe

399
00:17:11,510 --> 00:17:07,170
serves to

400
00:17:15,350 --> 00:17:14,150
not introduce a thermal hazard early in

401
00:17:18,949 --> 00:17:15,360
the spacecraft

402
00:17:19,829 --> 00:17:18,959
assembly so you're basically holding off

403
00:17:22,069 --> 00:17:19,839
on that

404
00:17:23,510 --> 00:17:22,079
the heat that's generated or put off by

405
00:17:24,789 --> 00:17:23,520
the 238

406
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:24,799
you don't have that thermal hazard

407
00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:27,360
present as well that makes sense

408
00:17:31,350 --> 00:17:29,440
so i gotta say after hearing you talk

409
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:31,360
about this i

410
00:17:34,789 --> 00:17:33,200
you know when you're you hear you're oh

411
00:17:37,110 --> 00:17:34,799
we're launching uh

412
00:17:38,710 --> 00:17:37,120
a nuclear battery on on the perseverance

413
00:17:40,549 --> 00:17:38,720
river and sending it to mars like

414
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:40,559
you do kind of feel a little uneasy but

415
00:17:44,710 --> 00:17:42,640
hearing all the safety precautions that

416
00:17:46,950 --> 00:17:44,720
you know inl and the department of

417
00:17:49,590 --> 00:17:46,960
energy have gone through to make this

418
00:17:51,350 --> 00:17:49,600
so safe i feel safer so thank you for

419
00:17:53,990 --> 00:17:51,360
talking to us absolutely

420
00:17:55,750 --> 00:17:54,000
so you know i can add too i you know i i

421
00:17:56,390 --> 00:17:55,760
feel very safe around it we work around

422
00:17:59,270 --> 00:17:56,400
this

423
00:17:59,990 --> 00:17:59,280
regularly at the idaho national lab

424
00:18:03,110 --> 00:18:00,000
we've worked around

425
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:03,120
it down here with nasa and jpl and in

426
00:18:06,630 --> 00:18:04,720
addition to the safety and the very

427
00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:06,640
rugged compact

428
00:18:09,990 --> 00:18:08,400
safety features and protective layers

429
00:18:12,630 --> 00:18:10,000
that the module provides

430
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:12,640
as well as the layers in the rtg you

431
00:18:17,029 --> 00:18:14,160
know nasa's done a a

432
00:18:17,510 --> 00:18:17,039
remarkable job of contingency planning

433
00:18:19,350 --> 00:18:17,520
and

434
00:18:21,029 --> 00:18:19,360
you'd have to talk to them to nasa to

435
00:18:23,350 --> 00:18:21,039
get more details on that

436
00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:23,360
but uh that you know full-on contingency

437
00:18:27,430 --> 00:18:24,080
plan

438
00:18:29,669 --> 00:18:27,440
in the event of an anomaly okay

439
00:18:31,029 --> 00:18:29,679
great so allison you said that was it

440
00:18:32,870 --> 00:18:31,039
for a social question yep that was what

441
00:18:35,029 --> 00:18:32,880
we have for social well then i will ask

442
00:18:36,230 --> 00:18:35,039
my last question and that's uh greg

443
00:18:36,789 --> 00:18:36,240
where are you going to be for launch

444
00:18:38,870 --> 00:18:36,799
tomorrow

445
00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:38,880
i will be in the joint information

446
00:18:42,310 --> 00:18:41,039
center which is part of the radiological

447
00:18:44,870 --> 00:18:42,320
control center

448
00:18:45,669 --> 00:18:44,880
i'll be serving as the mmrtg point of

449
00:18:47,909 --> 00:18:45,679
contact

450
00:18:49,510 --> 00:18:47,919
during the launch how exciting i'm

451
00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:49,520
excited we're going to be out here

452
00:18:53,669 --> 00:18:52,480
for those of you who cannot be out here

453
00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:53,679
can't join us you're not here in

454
00:18:57,669 --> 00:18:54,960
titusville

455
00:18:58,310 --> 00:18:57,679
or the the space coast region please

456
00:19:02,390 --> 00:18:58,320
join us

457
00:19:05,430 --> 00:19:02,400
online at www.nasa.gov

458
00:19:07,909 --> 00:19:05,440
live we would be remiss

459
00:19:09,830 --> 00:19:07,919
not to thank everybody all of our

460
00:19:11,110 --> 00:19:09,840
viewers for exploring with us for going

461
00:19:13,830 --> 00:19:11,120
through this process

462
00:19:15,909 --> 00:19:13,840
i want to thank stephanie and madison

463
00:19:17,750 --> 00:19:15,919
coming in on set with me

464
00:19:19,830 --> 00:19:17,760
they were amazing hosts we've had a lot

465
00:19:21,669 --> 00:19:19,840
of people working behind the scenes on

466
00:19:25,110 --> 00:19:21,679
this as well we have bethany

467
00:19:26,630 --> 00:19:25,120
doing production back there i think

468
00:19:26,950 --> 00:19:26,640
that's that's all we have we're going to

469
00:19:30,870 --> 00:19:26,960
wrap

470
00:19:32,549 --> 00:19:30,880
up for the the mars 2020 nasa social

471
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:32,559
and allison i think you have one last

472
00:19:36,070 --> 00:19:34,480
thing to say of course i do

473
00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:36,080
so we're very excited for the launch

474
00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:38,000
tomorrow go ahead and show your love

475
00:19:41,190 --> 00:19:40,320
by dropping a cheer in the comments go